Legislature(1997 - 1998)
03/13/1997 03:06 PM House HES
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HB 158 - RIGHT TO ATTEND SCHOOL ON PART-TIME BASIS Number 1293 CHAIRMAN BUNDE announced the next item on the agenda was HB 158, "An Act relating to attendance at a public school on a part-time basis." He said because Finance subcommittees are being closed out and there are conflicts, committee members will be coming and going. He said this is the first time that this bill is heard and testimony can continue even if a quorum cannot be maintained. The bill would be addressed next week. REPRESENTATIVE FRED DYSON, Sponsor of HB 158, said the Alaska Constitution requires that we provide education for all students who are qualified. He referred to Article VII, Section 1, "The legislature shall by general law establish and maintain a system of public schools open to all children of the State, and may provide for other public educational institutions." To his knowledge there is only one school district in the state, the Anchorage school district, which does not accept part-time students. It is his position that this is unfair, public schools are a public resource and ought to be opened to qualified students. REPRESENTATIVE DYSON said parents who are home schooling or have enrolled their children in a small, private school do not always have the resources for a computer lab, a shop class, a German class or something else. These parents feel they are being discriminated against by not being able to enroll their students on a part-time basis. This bill attempts to eliminate the discrimination. Number 1373 REPRESENTATIVE DYSON said the foundation formula has made a rational provision for part-time students. This formula is located in the committee file. As he read it, if a part-time student is there for a one hour class the school gets 25 percent of a full- time equivalent, for two hours they get 50 percent, for four hours they get 100 percent. He offered a revision of this formula if the school district would need to see more recovery for the administrative cost of a part-time student. Number 1427 REPRESENTATIVE DYSON stated that most of the state school districts cooperate with the home school and the private school students in their area. MatSu district does a marvelous job of working with their home school and private school kids and has done some special things to help them. Several school districts added that, when a student is expelled from school for disciplinary problems and then gets home schooled or private schooled, it is a great transition method for the student to go part-time into the public school setting rather than automatically becoming a full-time student. It gives the public school a chance to see if their deportment has gotten the student to an acceptable level of behavior. Number 1459 REPRESENTATIVE DYSON explained that there is nothing in HB 158 which talks about after-school activities, it deals with the academic program. Although he would like to see public schools make all the resources available, HB 158 only addresses academics. He believed that the school district ought to deal with extracurricular activities as they choose. This bill also has no mingling of public and private funds. A student who is involved in a private sectarian school and goes to a public school on a part- time basis to take a physics class, provides no benefit to the private sectarian institution. It is a benefit to the private student. Number 1498 REPRESENTATIVE DYSON said HB 158 does not talk at all about transportation, nothing about mingling of religious and public activities. He added that there are cases where the courts have ruled that public schools must take handicapped special education kids, even if they are all involved in a private sectarian religious school. Whatever barriers are there in making a benefit to a private and religious school, those have been overshadowed by the need for the handicapped student to have access to the public school resources. Number 1543 REPRESENTATIVE DYSON said Mike Ford from Legislative Legal is here to answer any questions as well as Lisa Hoff, his aide. Number 1560 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN created a scenario where two home schooled students wanted to attend a public school to take History 101. He asked if there was the potential to create an overcrowded classroom. Number 1581 REPRESENTATIVE DYSON said this could happen, just as it would if Alyeska moved 480 families to Fairbanks or new families moved into a community. These additional families are going to create overcrowded classrooms. Most of the school districts, outside of Anchorage, hoped that the private schools and the home schools wouldn't quit what they're doing. If all the home school or private school kids in their area came to school, they would have no basis on which they could reject them, they are an Alaskan student. Schools are always going to be subject to increasing population pressures. His view is that we ought to not discriminate against that student just because he is going to a private school. Number 1616 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN expressed a concern that the school would create schedules and then be inundated with students they did not expect to come into the public schools. Number 1647 REPRESENTATIVE DYSON answered that there are some very good staff who work on these problems; how many people have moved into their district over the summer, what is happening on the military bases and so on. Those staff are pretty good at estimating the numbers and other districts around the state are handling how many part- time students they will have. There is a process and a lead time in the fall when the parents go through the registration process. He assumed that the part-time students went through the same thing as the full-time students do. The district has gotten very good at employing part-time instructors to take the peaks and valleys off the varying loads and the classes that are slightly unpredictable. REPRESENTATIVE GREEN clarified that these would matriculate just like anyone else. Number 1695 CHAIRMAN BUNDE mentioned the scenario presented by Representative Dyson where people are moving to Fairbanks. Fairbanks now has six months to gear up for these 480 families. He reiterated that the home schooler who wanted, in the next school year, to be part of the public school would be required to register ahead of time so there would be some lead time. He clarified that, in mid-November, someone couldn't come in for a couple of weeks to attend a physics class. There would be some lead time for the district. Students might come and go on a semester basis. He asked if Representative Dyson would anticipate the same process as the one currently done for full-time students. Number 1730 CHAIRMAN BUNDE referred to the MatSu Valley and said they are well known as double dippers. They classified a lot of home schoolers as their students until they were caught. He said there were a lot of good folks out there who don't want any government service unless their house burns down or they need a school, nor do they want to pay any taxes. Number 1753 REPRESENTATIVE J. ALLEN KEMPLEN presented a scenario where there was a school with a multi-media computer lab and 20 private school students came in and wanted to use that computer lab at the same time. He asked how that would work. Number 1788 REPRESENTATIVE DYSON answered that the public school would be doing its duty by educating qualified Alaskan students. Number 1793 REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN asked if his interpretation of those students' use of the public school would not be a subsidy to the private school. Number 1809 REPRESENTATIVE DYSON answered yes. He presented a situation where one of those private school students had a brother who brought home a library book from the public school and the private school student happened to read it. The private school student benefitted by becoming more educated. He did not see this as a mingling. Number 1836 REPRESENTATIVE TOM BRICE said, along those same lines, the foundation formula will provide funding for those students that come in to take that one class at a higher level than a full-time student, to help compensate the school district. Number 1851 REPRESENTATIVE DYSON said this was true and added that there could be an inclusion to encourage the Department of Education (DOE) to provide even more front-end loading if the Anchorage school district can make a compelling argument that the administrative cost of a one hour student is close to that of a full-time student. If they can do this, then we might want to give them even more money. The funding formula that is being used is ten years old. Number 1876 CHAIRMAN BUNDE said it probably administratively taxes the system to register a student for one hour as it does to register them for the whole day. He asked for more information on this front-end loading. Number 1887 REPRESENTATIVE DYSON explained that the current formula provides that for a one hour student you get 25 percent of a full-time student's credit, 2 hours results in 50 percent and 4 hours equals 100 percent. His first thought, before he realized how well the DOE had done this, was to give the school district 35 percent for the first hour and go to 100 percent at four hours. He felt more educated administrators have done it this way and he would want them to comment on the rational behind it. Number 1912 LARRY WIGET, Director of Government Relations, Anchorage School District, said the Anchorage School District opposes HB 158. He referred to packets of information located in the committee file, regarding back-up information and the district's position on the ability of non-public students to participate in selected aspects of the public school program. There was also information related to extracurricular activities which, according to Representative Dyson, is not part of the discussion. Number 1973 MR. WIGET said the school district questions the constitutionality of HB 158, the administrative burden, the legal and policy considerations as well as the local control issue. It is their position that permitting private school students to attend public school classes violates Alaska's constitutional prohibitions against providing direct benefits to private schools and appropriating funds for non-public purposes. In addition, permitting private religious school students to attend public school classes might violate the establishment clause of both the state and federal constitutions. By taking over a portion of the parochial school's responsibility for teaching secular subjects, the district would, in effect, be subsidizing religious function in the parochial schools and/or private schools. MR. WIGET explained that the very courses which are being identified are high cost enrollment courses; physics, computers, etc. If you are a private institution and do not have to provide those courses, you can spend that money in other areas. Those schools could eliminate those courses from their curriculum which are the high cost courses. In a sense it subsidizes the private or religious school by having the public school provide those courses. MR. WIGET cautioned the legislature that HB 158 increases the possibility of litigation because of the constitutionality of the statute. He suspected that the Anchorage School District would be the ones who would bear the cost of that lawsuit. Number 2055 MR. WIGET referred to the discussion on whether this part-time schooling has an impact on the district or has an impact on the students. On behalf of the district, both are issues. Attempting to accommodate the potential part-time enrollment of the over 2,000 plus private correspondence and home school students who reside in the Anchorage attendance area under HB 158, raises a number of concerns and policy issues. The proposed statute may create unrealistic expectations that part-time students will be assured a seat in a given class. Administering the process is no small issue. Juggling the needs of the potential 2,000 part-time students with the needs of the 48,000 students currently enrolled in the district would be a major problem. The district has to plan for additional enrollment without knowing how many students. He agreed with Representative Dyson that the staff working in demographics are very good, but there are unknowns in this area. Number 2099 MR. WIGET said HB 158 does not address the transportation of students which might become an issue raised by parents, it could be another source of litigation. He stated that if we legally needed to provide a student access to a class, if that would also include providing transportation access to the student whose parents could not take them to this class. MR. WIGET said there is also the issue of continuity of the instructional program between the school district as compared to the continuity being provided by the home or private school. He brought up discipline issues. This statute will probably result in an undue administrative burden and will result in some legal challenges from both full and part-time students. Number 2131 MR. WIGET brought up the final issue, local control. Requiring a school district to provide this violates the concept of local control. It takes away the decision making power of the local school board. In conclusion, the Anchorage school district will be heavily impacted by any statute that requires the district to enroll part-time some, or all, of the 2,000 plus private correspondence or home school students who reside within the Anchorage school district attendance area. This proposed statute creates concerns for increased litigation. There might be limited opposition from other school districts, but said he was just talking to someone from a large district who expressed concerns about HB 158. MR. WIGET asked the committee to consider the difference between a small and a large school district. He said Anchorage is the eightieth largest school district in the United States. They are three times larger than the next district in the state which causes problems which might not be encountered in some of the more rural districts. Those rural districts might be looking for enrollment to keep their schools going. He said there might be limited opposition, but for the Anchorage school district this is an important issue which cannot be ignored. Number 2190 CHAIRMAN BUNDE clarified that Anchorage was the only district in the state which did not allow part-time students. TAPE 97-19, SIDE B Number 0000 CHAIRMAN BUNDE asked if there have been any constitutional challenges from the other districts. Number 0021 MR. WIGET answered that there have been no constitutional challenges at this point in time. It doesn't mean that there isn't some potential for those challenges. Number 0040 CHAIRMAN BUNDE said he has received lobbying from MatSu, not one person from Anchorage has lobbied him about this issue. He clarified that if someone moved into the district now, the school district was required to provide a seat. He asked if a home schooler shows up, would the district be required to provide a seat. Number 0083 MR. WIGET said he might approach it this way if he were a principal in a school where that student would be placed. If a parent wanted to enroll their student in a number of classes, it is quite possible that the principal might say that at this point in time the particular computer class was not available because it was full. Allowing part-time students brings in people who get to pick and choose from the curriculum. Number 0125 CHAIRMAN BUNDE referred to the concept that home schoolers would need to enroll in the classes and not just pop in mid-semester. If new students arrived mid-semester and attended classes, then he did not know how we could prohibit home schoolers from attending a class mid-semester. Number 0161 MR. WIGET said this raised another point. The idea that we would be allowing a student to pick and choose a class, and asked what would stop a student, who is a senior in high school, who is unable to get the computer course he needs, from becoming a home school student and then enrolling in the computer class. Number 0217 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked if he was a part-time student who was going to take one academic class, but did not require ancillary activities such as gym or cafeteria, would that assist with making up the difference for the expensive class. Number 0290 MR. WIGET cited an example from when he worked at the University of Montana. He taught a hands on technology course for 20 students and needed an additional $50,000 worth of equipment. Conversely there was a professor who gave a history lecture course and was able to have 300 students. He described the disparity between the expenditure and resources. Number 0342 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN provided the possibility that there was not such a disparity as was previously mentioned. He referred to the comment that there might be problems with taking a student from a religious school. He clarified that the constitution says that no money should be expended for religious or private educational institution. He asked if a student was the same as an institution. Number 0378 MR. WIGET felt this was an issue that would wind up in the courts. There is some disagreement, that potentially you can be providing direct support to the institution by having a class that the institution doesn't have to offer to meet the requirements. The feeling is that you could circumvent having to offer that class by telling students that they should individually go to the school and tell them to offer this particular class. Number 0438 REPRESENTATIVE DYSON asked if Mr. Ford could respond to the constitutionality question. Number 0458 MIKE FORD, Attorney, Legislative Legal, Legislative Affairs Agency, said the constitutional question boils down to the issue of whether or not it will be a direct benefit to the private institution. He did not believe that the cases on the issue support the conclusion that it is a benefit. What is being suggested that if you attend a private school you lose your status as a protected individual under the provision that requires the state to provide education to students of Alaska. He did not believe this was true because we are merely leveling the playing field and saying to a student that they have the right to attend public school classes. The issue of overcrowding, displacing another full-time student is taken care of by a provision in HB 158. This provision says that you basically have to treat the non-public student in the same manner as you do the public student. If you have a computer science class that is full and you can't transfer someone into the class, then you would not have to enroll the private school student into that class. This provision does a lot to alleviate this pressure concept. MR. FORD said, if you have a spot which is not being filled, then that person should be able to come in and take it. It comes down to a question of direct benefit. He thought the benefit being discussed is conferred to the student, not the institution. Number 0542 MR. WIGET asked Mr. Ford if someone else in his same position could come up with the exact opposite position. MR. FORD answered that anything is possible. Number 0564 REPRESENTATIVE DYSON said we have many diverse cultures in our country, in terms of ethnicity and religions. As those groups dispersed they found themselves without the population base needed to form a private school. He cited an example where Mormon classmates of his went to a designated place and received instruction. It was a definite benefit to them, because they did not have their own school and curriculum for a handful of students. The public school, in essence, benefited that group. He referred to Jewish communities who provide special instruction. REPRESENTATIVE DYSON asked if the district was going to be in the position of saying that they did not want this public resource to be of any benefit to any schools or any kids that are attending any kind of religious education somewhere. Number 0662 MR. WIGET said he would probably make a distinction between taking a public school course and having separate religious instruction. He took religious instruction separately in his church. He emphasized the word "separately". He was not taking academic courses at the church. The Jewish community in his neighborhood as well as the Ukrainian community had their own separate thing outside the public education system as an added thing that they wanted to do. He said this is probably getting into a different level of interpretation. If HB 158 is passed, these different interpretations will be brought up and judged legally. Number 0708 CHAIRMAN BUNDE said this is the first time that HB 158 is being heard and no action will be taken on it at today's meeting. Number 0749 CAMI MOLINE explained that she has two boys, the younger one has been taken out of public school and she has enrolled him in the home school program that the school district administers. She's had several days this year when she felt the public school teachers ought to thank her for taking him out. She has another child who attends public school. She just heard about HB 158 this morning and does not feel that money should be taken out of the public schools. MS. MOLINE read from a prepared statement, "I am a stay-at-home- mom. Before having the wonderful opportunity to do this as a career, I worked at three different agencies as a social worker and counselor to delinquent and emotionally disturbed adolescents and teenaged children. I have come to the conclusion that raising children to become responsible adults is something that simply cannot be left to chance. We cannot count on it happening accidently. A few years ago children spent much more time with their parents, and had much more access to adults who cared about them and could influence their lives in positive ways. But things have changed. It seems to me that now, perhaps through no fault of their own, parents leave home at the crack of dawn and don't see their children until dark. This means they turn their children over to other people, some of them highly trained and almost invariable well-meaning, and in some cases, totally committed. But, Mr. Chairman, this arrangement is just not working for all students. Every study that's ever been done has clearly shown that none of the many alternatives, provided as they often are by specialists, quite measures up to substantial parental involvement in the daily lives of children. Wherever possible, the primary responsibility for children should lie with their parents. I certainly do recognize that with many families it is essential for both parents work. Some of the best parents I know, and you know, are women who hold full-time jobs. I honor them for it. But we are sticking our heads in the sand when we insist that there is nothing wrong with less and less time for children to bond with their parents, and that the trend toward our having all aspects of our children's lives turned over to `specialists'. Oftentimes the specialists are reduced to little more than day-care workers for school age children. Sometimes the specialists are deeply committed, long-suffering teachers, trying to meet the incredibly diverse educationally and emotional needs of 30 plus children in their classrooms. It cannot be done. It is wrong for teachers; it is wrong for parents and, most of all, it is wrong for children. And there is no room for professional territorialism when it comes to the training of our children. Parents and teachers must enter into a new kind of partnership in this immensely important process. Any legislation that enables and supports willing parents who want to give more of themselves to their children and take more responsibility for the education and training of their children, makes sense." MS. MOLINE said the discussion on this bill assumed that there would be a huge influx of home school and private school children into the school district. She felt that many parents, who feel as she does, would relish the opportunity to spend more of the day with their children imparting special skills. Those parents might not feel totally confident that they have the skills needed to teach math, for instance. Her older son is 11-years-old and would be making the transition to middle school, but those classrooms are packed and his needs will not be met there. She plans on taking her son out of school and sees HB 158 as a method for reducing class size. Students who attend public school would receive more attention from the teachers. She did not want to take any money out of the public school systems and did not see that people who would take advantage of HB 158 would want to do that either. It needs not to be taken for granted that class sizes would increase in all areas. Number 1063 CHAIRMAN BUNDE said that was a point well taken. He suspected that class sizes might increase in some specialized areas, but not in all areas. He asked, as someone who home schools, whether she could enroll her son in a public school class. He asked what the policy was in the Juneau school district. Number 1082 MS. MOLINE said the Juneau public schools have offered a computer lab for her son's use. This offer has not been taken advantage of because there hasn't been the need to do it. CHAIRMAN BUNDE clarified that the access is available. Number 1102 MS. MOLINE pointed out that there seemed to be an antagonism between parents and children. She felt parents needed to take more responsibility. Parents hold teachers in the public schools accountable for all the problems their children have. Number 1140 CHAIRMAN BUNDE referred to a personally held philosophy that he hoped was more sarcasm than truth; some parents send their kids away at age 5 and take them back at age 18, if they turn out the parents take credit, otherwise the school gets the blame. He referred to the antagonism between home school parents and the public schools, and suggested that there appears to be a distrustful relationship. Number 1164 REPRESENTATIVE DYSON suggested that perhaps some of the antagonism would go away as a result of distance and allowing some integration between the two. In several districts the home school and private schools who had an almost paranoia about public education sent their kids to a few classes and found it wasn't so bad. The public school teachers and administrators said that the home school and private school kids deportment and respect was salutary to the public school kids. He thought it was perceptive to see this bill as being reconciliatory. Number 1218 REPRESENTATIVE DYSON referred to a prediction he made; Representative Elton felt that there would be more students coming into the school system while he felt that more people would choose to spend a significant portion of their time home schooling their child because the specialist things they were so nervous about would be taken care of. CHAIRMAN BUNDE announced that there was one more person to testify and after that public testimony would be closed. He said he needed to go to a Finance Budget Subcommittee meeting and turned the gavel over to Representative Dyson. Number 1291 SUE CLOVER said she home schools and it is organized as a private school under state law. She supported HB 158 because she felt it would create more options for parents and would meet the needs for special classes. She has a daughter who is interested in French, she has knowledge of Spanish and can't even pronounce the words in French. Her daughter is getting close to high school age, they have looked at various options such as getting her General Equivalency Diploma (GED) and having her take a university classes. MS. CLOVER said her experience in Juneau is that they have set up a correspondence program which would allow some classes to be taken, but then you are under their supervision, you aren't allowed to be a separate private school. Curriculum is approved by the district. If you choose not to do that, you are locked out of the system. Number 1342 MS. CLOVER said she has heard of a few people who have taken part in the public schools, other than the correspondence program, and it seemed that they were either so demanding that they got their way, they had gifted or special needs children or they knew someone and were able to talk them into it. Educational choices should not depend on who you know. MS. CLOVER suggested that Alaska has been very innovative and referred to the high school correspondence course, now known as Alyeska. Alaska was one of the earliest states to allow home schools to be operated under the private school law. Passing this legislation will allow one more option for parents.
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